torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)Travis ([personal profile] torachan) wrote,
@ 2009-05-10 06:34 pm UTC
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Entry tags:rants
1. We have not heard from Patricia Wrede, author of the faily book in question, herself, only from her defenders (mainly Lois McMaster Bujold). I have wondered idly what her reaction would be like. I know nothing of the woman, having never even heard of her until this, but if this quote from her when she was writing the book is anything to go by, I'm thinking she probably won't react well.

I responded on the thread itself, but I'll post my comment here as well:

Good to know that Native Americans are nothing more than a "problem" to be "eliminated", that the task of, as Alo said, writing them as people was beyond her, that she felt she had no choice (her hands were tied, folks!) but to write them as one tired stereotype or another. Apparently she found the stereotyped roles allowed "Aphrikans" to be more palatable.

And the "right feel"? What was the "right feel"? That white settlers were awesome and singlehandedly turned this (empty) country into a prosperous nation? Was there not a single thought going through this woman's head other than "squee! megafauna!!!1111!!!"?

I just...seriously? I keep going back to the words "eliminating the problem". Eliminating the problem. How could someone say those words without any self-awareness? (And I am still giving her the benefit of the doubt that it's just massive cluelessness.) This is text communication. You can choose your words more carefully than you might in the middle of an oral conversation. You have time to think about what you're saying. And you still choose to use words that call to mind the act of actual genocide while contemplating your planned textual genocide?

Really?

2. So I have been watching as Bujold continues to dig herself deeper and deeper. Others have discussed the fail inherent in insisting that those who claim to be Native American are suspect, that only those with money to give to charity are truly concerned with social justice, that it is somehow surprising that Native Americans know how to use the internet, that there are more than enough Native Americans alive today, so what happened in the past doesn't matter, etc. etc. so I will just focus on this:

Note that while the assessment is still negative, it is more nuanced -- and, in this case through a donation of time and attention, an opinion that has earned its right to be regarded.

Once again, it's put forth that it's invalid to have an opinion about something unless you have seen or read it yourself. Now, yes, there are times when people do get hysterical over things via second-hand misinformation, but just because some people believe crazy rumors about Harry Potter books that could be easily disproved by actually reading them doesn't mean that no one should ever form an opinion based on a review of something they haven't read (or seen) themselves. People do this all the time! That's why reviews exist! No one has time to read and watch everything. We are all always forming opinions based on something other than the full text of the work in question. Sometimes our opinions are "hey, this sounds interesting, I'm going to read it", sometimes they are "do not want".

Reviews can be especially important when the very premise of something sounds skeevy.

For example, two books I've seen recced all over the place recently are The Secret Life of Bees and The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time. After seeing those titles appear over and over, I decided to check them out and found that both summaries made me uneasy.

Secret Life sounded like yet another story where black people only exist to help the white heroine. The author is white. These two things alone were not enough to make up my mind. It could be that the summary is bad and the book itself does not fall into those traps. So I read the reviews on Amazon. There are a slew of glowing reviews...none of which mention the problematic aspects in a way that makes me think the readers had even thought about them. It wasn't that the reviewers discussed possibily problematic aspects and concluded that the author had done a good job; they seemed unaware that there was anything that could be problematic. So I looked at the negative reviews, and immediately found ones that discussed the book critically and addressed the points I had been worried about.

Curious Incident is about an autistic boy who, from the summary/reviews, sounds like every autistic stereotype rolled into one. The author is neurotypical. Positive reviews that mention autism at all praise the book for the insight, for a window into the autistic mind, etc. Now. I'm not going to say an NT author can never write something insightful re: autism, but I'm pretty doubtful, you know? So I check the negative reviews, and there are many comments by autistic readers who were unhappy with the portrayal. Who am I going to believe, when choosing a book that might possibly irritate me with its stereotypes and nonsense? Yeah, you can bet it's not NTs oohing and aahing about being ~enlightened~ by the portrayal.

In both cases, I have formed an opinion without reading the books in question. I am 99.9% certain that they would annoy me and waste my time. I will, if the books come up, not hesitate to anti-rec them and explain why I find them problematic, despite having not read them myself.

And that is what people are doing with Wrede's book. They saw a skeevy premise, they read reviews (positive and negative) by people who had read the book, and they decided the folks who had read critically and were engaging with the problematic aspects, rather than ignoring them or being unaware of the possibility, were the ones to be trusted.

Especially since not one positive reviewer has put forth any reason why the negative reviewers should be discredited. It's the same pattern in all three books discussed here. The only people engaging seriously and critically with problematic elements of the books are the negative reviewers. If positive reviewers make any note of the issues, it's to say things like "it's just fiction", which is not a defense and does not address the problems.

And having heard both sides, should I and others discuss the problems in the book, our opinions have just as much right to be regarded. (Not that I expect Bujold actually gave any more thought to that person's comments than she did to anyone else's. Her attitude is remarkably similar to Elizabeth Bear's.)



For further reading, see [personal profile] naraht's excellent links roundup (note: avoid anything by [personal profile] hatman for the sake of your blood pressure).


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inkstone: Air Gear's Ringo looking dubious, text: ... (...)


[personal profile] inkstone
2009-05-11 11:45 am UTC (link)
It's like there was some serious fail in the air last night because I woke up this morning to read that quote from Patricia Wrede on the Tor thread and this comment from LMB on [livejournal.com profile] fiction_theory's post. This part right here:
The other and more hopeful point is that never before have so many Readers of Color existed to *have* the conversation, or been able to communicate with each other to do so.

about made me lose my mind.

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torachan: yotsuba looking sad/shocked (gaan)


[personal profile] torachan
2009-05-11 11:49 am UTC (link)
DDDDDDDDDDDD:

Wow. I read that post, but I missed her comment.

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(no subject) - [personal profile] inkstone, 2009-05-11 12:04 pm UTC (Expand)
gloss: woman saying "you gotta be kidding" (Leila: no bullshit)

rhetorical fury, sorry


[personal profile] gloss
2009-05-11 03:22 pm UTC (link)
never before have so many Readers of Color existed to *have* the conversation, or been able to communicate with each other to do so.
OH FUCK NO.

Seriously, she thinks readers of color in large numbers is new and NDNs on the Intertubes is, too? Where is she, Pleasantville? (And if so, how's she posting on the net anyway?)

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Re: rhetorical fury, sorry - [personal profile] inkstone, 2009-05-11 04:39 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: rhetorical fury, sorry - [personal profile] gloss, 2009-05-11 04:44 pm UTC (Expand)
anatsuno: Engrish subtitle on a SPN cap: "U R my heart" and Sam Winchester's toothy smile (HART)


[personal profile] anatsuno
2009-05-11 12:03 pm UTC (link)
Great post! Seriously, to see writers argue again and again that making your mind up based on reviews is laughable - I mean, I can see how one's ego gets upset at the idea wrt one's books, but look around and see how the world WORKS, and dare tell me that you never not once made up your mind based on someone else's review because you trusted them to filter things for you? To deny the existence of that mechanism or its validity is so ridiculous I don't have words for it. Thank you for yours! :)

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2009-05-11 12:15 pm UTC (link)
I know, right? I mean, it would be one thing if defenders of the book were pointing out how detractors were misinformed and providing evidence that the premise is not as bad as it seems, but they're not. They fall back on it's just fiction and she's a nice person and omg dun judge.

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amadi: A stylized photo of two calla lily flowers (Calla Lily)


[personal profile] amadi
2009-05-11 06:49 pm UTC (link)
It's a rather simple and classic case of wanting to have it both ways. Anyone making this argument that a bad review should not dissuade a reader would never then make the logical counter-argument that a good review should not encourage a reader either. Either reviews are important or they're not.

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sami: (your argument is invalid)


[personal profile] sami
2009-05-12 01:15 am UTC (link)
I've had someone who claims to be a reviewer making that argument, which... no.

I'm waiting until my ADHD meds kick in this morning to weigh in seriously, though.

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[identity profile] parthenia14.livejournal.com
2009-05-11 12:32 pm UTC (link)
Somewhat off-topic and irrelevant, I know, but I really liked 'The Curious Incident...' I can imagine that people with Asperger's, or those close to them, might love it or hate it; but it's a very strong young-adult story which is essentially a murder mystery. I don't think it romanticises Christopher one bit, and the central conceit (you are constantly reading Christopher's first-person interpretation of events while working out what's going on more broadly) is extremely well done. However I guess people might love or be skeeved by that.

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2009-05-11 12:39 pm UTC (link)
I think what it comes down to is that I'm really not interested in reading someone's fantasy of what being autistic is like, especially not when autistic voices are routinely silenced.

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(no subject) - [personal profile] keeva, 2009-05-11 02:27 pm UTC (Expand)
alchemia: (- - Cello Cat - default)


[personal profile] alchemia
2009-05-12 04:15 am UTC (link)
That it can be/is read as a strong story about X (instead of a story about a person on the autistic spectrum) is problematic though. The autism/autistic person becomes just a device through which a story that "everyone else" (iow, non-autistic people) can relate. Would you feel the same if instead the book of discussion had a main character who was a POC, or a woman, but people mostly ignored/avoided the character's culture/gender/etc to focus instead on the "universal story of X"?

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(no subject) - [identity profile] parthenia14.livejournal.com, 2009-05-12 08:36 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] alchemia, 2009-05-12 11:20 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] torachan, 2009-05-12 11:45 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] alchemia, 2009-05-13 12:08 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [identity profile] parthenia14.livejournal.com, 2009-05-13 10:32 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] hekaterine, 2009-05-13 12:04 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [identity profile] parthenia14.livejournal.com, 2009-05-13 09:31 am UTC (Expand)
helens78: A man in a leather jacket, seated on the ground, looks up hopefully. (x: erik looking up)


[personal profile] helens78
2009-05-11 02:13 pm UTC (link)
Really excellent, well-argued post. I think that's the best case I've read for why it is okay to be turned off by something without having read it, and your approach of reading negative reviews to see if people had picked up on the problematic points is one I will definitely have to remember!

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2009-05-11 02:34 pm UTC (link)
Thank you! I have such trouble writing essays and never quite feel like I actually said what I wanted to say, so I'm glad to seems coherent. XD

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puritybrown: (pic#212419)


[personal profile] puritybrown
2009-05-11 02:45 pm UTC (link)
Excellent points. Re #1: the FAIL! It astonishes me! I mean: the idea that she has to choose between a negative stereotype and a positive stereotype, and she doesn't like either of those options, so hey! she'll just write them out of existence! -- that's. uh. What?

Re #2: If you read a book a week for your entire life from the age of 15 to the age of 105, you'd read 4,732 books. Round up to 5,000 to account for the weeks when you read two, and that's still less than 5% of the books published in English in a year. So we filter. We filter by looking at cover designs (the semiotics of cover design are fascinating), at blurbs, at reviews, at reactions by our friends, and at the author's name and reputation -- because if you liked Joe Bloggs's first novel, you might like his second. Only, sometimes that "name and reputation" thing works the other way around. I have a little list of "living authors whose real-life behaviours and attitudes stink badly enough that I'm not giving them any of my money", and hey! LMB just got put on it. Because there are enough books out there by people who aren't like that -- more than enough; several lifetimes' worth in fact.

(I saw a DVD of The Secret Life of Bees and immediately thought "ooh, lots of distinguished black actresses! ...what's the little white girl doing there?" And the summary on the back made it seem like a Magical Negro/Mammy story that was all about the white girl, and, uh... no. No, thank you. I haven't read The Curious Incident, nor have I read any reviews of it by aspies [wasn't interested enough in the book to look for them, though I would have if I'd been thinking of buying it], but it doesn't surprise me that there have been negative reactions. The extracts and reviews I've seen made it sound like the author had a very... un-nuanced idea of AS, and who needs that?)

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ceri: (draenei, Luzara, non-sinister, shaman, World of Warcraft)


[personal profile] ceri
2009-05-11 03:36 pm UTC (link)
I really like the way you put #2. I get so damn frustrated by people who act as if we don't constantly filter on all sorts of criteria...who usually go on in the next thread to boast about their massive to-read piles, and how they've had X thousand books for years and not read this or that, but who are sure that the rest of us have a duty to read the books they like that contain offensive stuff they gloss over. Feh! Feh, I say!

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2009-05-12 10:54 am UTC (link)
The act of choosing to not write rather than fall into stereotypes doesn't surprise me so much, since I see that as an excuse all the time in fandom. But combined with the language she chose ("eliminate the problem"??? Really?????) just continues to blow my mind.

And yeah, life is too short and there are way too many books out there for me to "donate my time and attention" to something I am 99.9% sure will piss me off. Especially when the person insisting I should do so is not acting like she's listening to people who have read it anyway.

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gloss: woman in nightgown laughing (Emily Hartley, joy)


[personal profile] gloss
2009-05-11 03:25 pm UTC (link)
Excellent points, especially in #2. I've made similar decisions about both those books and god knows how many others. Not only is it what readers *do*, it's valuable when, as you note, the work being avoided has such majoritarian, stereotyped elements.

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (cry me a river)


[personal profile] torachan
2009-05-14 11:03 pm UTC (link)
Srsly, I am about ready to snap if one more person tells me how great they thought Curious Incident was and how they totally didn't think it was at all problematic. Especially when they're saying it in response to the post where I linked Al's quotes from the author/book club. Gah!

Last edited 2009-05-14 11:04 pm UTC

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(no subject) - [personal profile] gloss, 2009-05-14 11:11 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] torachan, 2009-05-14 11:29 pm UTC (Expand)
bell: Kutner stares at you (kutner)


[personal profile] bell
2009-05-11 03:27 pm UTC (link)
I'd read the Tor discussion yesterday, but I'd somehow missed Pat Wrede's comment. THANK YOU, NOW I AM APPALLED. Eliminating the problem? And yet her defenders, well, defend any possibility that there's subtext going on with the book's premise. I guess I was so disturbed by Bujold's remarks (I love Bujold's books) to pick up on any more fail....

Reading the thread, I got so frustrated to see the same racism-denying problems that appear *every* single time. Derailing. Ignoring PoC and actually listening to the same message when it comes from a white person. Belittling. More derailing. And a bonus of throwing money around to make yourself look good! (Oh, Bujold.) And through all this the legitimate complaints from PoC, including actual Native Americans go unheeded and even insulted. lkjdalkdjfadf. I'm starting to wonder at the possibility of any of these authors getting the point, despite how easy it'd be to read up the 101-type guides available online, because they only listen to one another.

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holyschist: Image of a medieval crocodile from Herodotus, eating a person, with the caption "om nom nom" (paleontology, science)


[personal profile] holyschist
2009-05-11 06:21 pm UTC (link)
It wasn't in the Tor discussion--it was on a list back when Wrede was writing the book.

I am torn between hoping she joins the current discussion and acknowledges that she fucked up very badly and hoping she doesn't show up because I doubt she'd do any better than Bujold.

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(no subject) - [personal profile] torachan, 2009-05-11 06:22 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] holyschist, 2009-05-11 06:38 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] torachan, 2009-05-11 06:41 pm UTC (Expand)
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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2009-05-14 11:32 pm UTC (link)
And now people have dug up even more stuff from that same post where she said "eliminating the problem" and I just...wow.

And yeah, I definitely get a feeling with a lot of these people that they feel they're above the ordinary readers, and since their fellow writer friends all think the same as they do, the people they're listening to are just reinforcing their beliefs.

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(no subject) - [personal profile] bell, 2009-05-15 12:30 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] bell, 2009-05-15 12:32 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [personal profile] torachan, 2009-05-15 12:34 am UTC (Expand)
anime_babble: (avatar, toph)


[personal profile] anime_babble
2009-05-12 01:15 am UTC (link)
The Pat Wrede thing makes me so sad, because she was one of my favorite authors, one of the few YA authors that transitioned well into rereads in adulthood. She was nice enough to reply my email to her, when I found her random email online.

I'm just so disappointed right now.

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2009-05-12 01:17 am UTC (link)
Yeah, so far none of the people involved (in this or the E. Bear version) have been authors I read (most of them I've not even heard of), so I've been spared that. It's tough, though. :-/

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sorchar: Sparkly brain (epilepsy)


[personal profile] sorchar
2009-05-12 03:52 am UTC (link)
I knew Pat Wrede years ago on Fido and she was always gracious and friendly. I'm hoping that she'll live up to that memory and listen with an open mind and open heart.

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2009-05-14 11:39 pm UTC (link)
I kind of doubt it based on how she reacted to veeeery mild criticism according to this post. When she was discussing writing the book, one person made a suggestion and she says "well, that's your book, this is mine". Doesn't exactly give me hope that she's at all open-minded or willing to learn.

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(no subject) - [personal profile] sorchar, 2009-05-15 02:52 am UTC (Expand)
alchemia: (- - Cello Cat - default)


[personal profile] alchemia
2009-05-12 04:21 am UTC (link)
I *still* haven't read the Curious Incident of the Dog... but I've read a lot about reading it! I will probably eventually get around to it, just because it comes up in so many discussions that I have interest in, and I think that even with the positive/negative reviews in the back of my mind, I can still read it fairly open mindedly; I've taken in other stories that were widely loved/hated and sometimes come away with the less popular POV, or I've changed my opinion after discussions, etc.

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2009-05-12 09:49 am UTC (link)
Yeah, there have definitely been times where I felt I wanted to read something to see whether I agreed with the positive or negative reviews, but in this case I just didn't feel like it.

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susanreads: my avatar, a white woman with brown hair and glasses (mini-me)

I quoted part of your argument...


[personal profile] susanreads
2009-05-15 09:23 pm UTC (link)
...not too out of context I hope.
Manual trackback: Three things that are not random

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)

Re: I quoted part of your argument...


[personal profile] torachan
2009-05-15 10:09 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for the heads-up. :)

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