torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)Travis ([personal profile] torachan) wrote,
@ 2010-06-15 11:25 pm UTC
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Entry tags:trans
Okay, so I am of course adding all the relevant fics from [livejournal.com profile] lgbtfest to my master list. On my list I put whether the fic is about ftm, mtf, genderqueer, or intersex characters and sometimes I can't tell from the summary what's going on, so I have to skim the fic to find out.

This is one I came across tonight.

Here's the prompt:

RPF - Pundits, Rachel Maddow, I look like a dude, I dress like a boy, I'm kind of mannish -- Rachel wishes someone would just take the hint and ask

Here's an excerpt:
Rachel wants to both blame someone and not blame anyone but herself when someone at the table jokes that she's just 'one of the guys.' It's frequent, expected, and not in the way that might make her uncomfortable. She likes that they can treat her with both respect and something like how they treat each other, with stereotypical back-slapping and borderline dirty jokes.

[...]

But it's missing something. Even when she's sitting back, wanting to kick her sneakers up on the table, there's a lot of her that wants to say what's been burning her up ever since she started hanging out with them. It's not like she's lying to them, but it feels like it is in another sense, that she actually is one the guys.


Here's the thing:

This is a story about Rachel being a trans woman.


Now, I was not the person to suggest this prompt, but I can't imagine it was meant to be about mtf!Rachel. How on earth would "looking like a dude, dressing like a boy, and being kind of mannish" be hints that Rachel had been assigned male at birth? And yet that's what the writer assumed. And then took it one further by outright saying Rachel "actually is one the guys".

The rest of the story is...odd. Clunky. Not terribly offensive in and of itself. [After reading the rest more closely, there are definitely other bits that make me D:, such as the implication that only a cis woman can be a tomboyish woman, and underneath that, that therefore a trans woman is not a woman at all.] But even if the fic were perfect, I just cannot get over using that prompt in this way.


I'm trying to think of what to say to the author, if anything.



*Yes, it's true. I actually gleefully click on each fic, desperately hoping to be slapped in the face by something hurtful. It's what I live for.


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dragovianknight: A small kitten draped in green yarn (General - Disapproving/pissy (KR-Devon-b)

Clearly, I need to import my "BZUH?" icon here


[personal profile] dragovianknight
2010-06-16 07:28 am UTC (link)
This is a story about Rachel being a trans woman.

B...because what every transwoman dreams of is to be treated like her birth-assigned gender?

...

Logic fail; reboot brain.

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)

Re: Clearly, I need to import my "BZUH?" icon here


[personal profile] torachan
2010-06-16 08:11 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I don't even know.

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jackandahat: (Knitting Addict)

Re: Clearly, I need to import my "BZUH?" icon here


[personal profile] jackandahat
2010-06-16 08:31 am UTC (link)
This is the thing - it would make perfect sense if she was really he, and was trying to go "Look, I'm a trans guy, get used to it." But to say no, woman - and someone who has put effort into being seen as a woman, because it's not like a trans woman just gets to click her fingers and be viewed as female, sadly - it makes no sense.

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)

Re: Clearly, I need to import my "BZUH?" icon here


[personal profile] torachan
2010-06-16 08:37 am UTC (link)
Yeah, that's certainly how I would have interpreted the prompt. (I could also accept it as Rachel wanting people to take the hint that sie's genderqueer.)

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jackandahat: (Knitting Addict)

Re: Clearly, I need to import my "BZUH?" icon here


[personal profile] jackandahat
2010-06-16 08:44 am UTC (link)
*nods* That would have made sense. Or I could even see a trans woman wanting to go "Look, yes, I'm a woman but I'm still the same person, being a woman doesn't mean I quit drinking beer and coming over to watch football." But not putting it like this, not "dropping hints".

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aris_tgd: Personal avatar Phumiko (phumiko)


[personal profile] aris_tgd
2010-06-16 07:29 am UTC (link)
That... oh dear. I will be charitable and assume the author just does not know how offensive that is. That it's a fundamental misunderstanding in a way that privileges binary and birth-assignment essentialism and a definition of "real" identity which has hurt and continues to hurt trans women--and anyone suspected of being a trans woman. At the very least it's incredibly thoughtless.

I don't want to say anything else because I haven't read the fic, just your excerpted paragraphs. But um. Maybe just point out something about "See how these assumptions align with privilege?" I don't know.

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2010-06-16 08:00 am UTC (link)
Yes, exactly. The only way to read that prompt as being about a trans woman is if you're associating trans women with "mannish". D:

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aris_tgd: Personal avatar Phumiko (phumiko)


[personal profile] aris_tgd
2010-06-16 08:08 am UTC (link)
And I mean--I could see a story about a specific woman who wanted to more fully realize a trans or a genderqueer identity in the context of having been passing, and I still would be really, really uncomfortable having that story anywhere near the phrase "I look like a dude."

I really hope this is a case of not having thought this through at all, and that the author takes critique well and moves forward.

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2010-06-16 08:13 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I think for that story to work the character would have to already be out as trans, and then wanting people to see them as more genderqueer.

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surpassingly: (scene: lightness losing weight)


[personal profile] surpassingly
2010-06-16 07:42 am UTC (link)
Glee! Vicious glee!

But, ugh. I'm sorry you're having to deal with that.

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2010-06-16 08:01 am UTC (link)
Fandom segues so smoothly from ablism to racism to transphobia...

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inkstone: Rurouni Kenshin's Yahiko & Misao smacking their heads (facepalm)


[personal profile] inkstone
2010-06-16 11:24 am UTC (link)
Everyone gets in on the action! That's how fandom is!

...god, why.

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pulchritude: (3)


[personal profile] pulchritude
2010-06-16 05:37 pm UTC (link)
Oh noes, what was the ablism? :|

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2010-06-16 08:15 pm UTC (link)
Did you see the stuff about [community profile] hc_bingo? [personal profile] sasha_feather has some great links. I especially liked this one by [personal profile] dirty_diana.

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pulchritude: Manuel Neuer comforting Benedikt Höwedes (10)


[personal profile] pulchritude
2010-06-16 08:55 pm UTC (link)
Oh, yes. The whole thing completely slipped my mind D:. Thank you for the reminder.

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gelasius: (atla_mycabbages)


[personal profile] gelasius
2010-06-16 07:53 am UTC (link)
I'm not sure what to say to that actually. It is kind of awkwardly written, so I think I have to do some extrapolating on the concept.

I mean, it *could* be the story of a genderqueer trans woman who wants to bond with the men in her life by letting them know her history because she still identifies somewhat with maleness. I could theoretically identify with that (I've had situations where I wanted to out myself to a group of women I didn't know well to let them know I /got/ the feminist concerns that were the subject of discussion, but didn't because that might make it suddenly All About Me), and it *could* be subversive to the standard binary transgender narratives. That would be nifty.

Or it *could* be a story that completely misses the point of transgender identity and I'm doing mental gymnastics to accept it. IDK.

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2010-06-16 08:09 am UTC (link)
I think that would be a great story, but no, I don't think that is this story.

No one knows Rachel is trans. The fact that she "looks like a dude, dresses like a boy, and is kind of mannish" are supposed to be hints to something. That something ends up being that Rachel is a trans woman.

I just am really, really bothered by linking trans women with mannish in that way. Rachel as a butch dykey trans woman would be awesome. But this feels like it's coming from icky assumptions about trans women.

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gelasius: (atla_cabbages)


[personal profile] gelasius
2010-06-16 08:12 am UTC (link)
Yeah, you're probably right about that. I may end up leaving feedback to that effect (hey, here's how you could have taken this premise in a way that was less hurtful) but I think I need to sleep on it.

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2010-06-16 08:14 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I am still unsure if I want to comment or not myself.

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aris_tgd: Personal avatar Phumiko (phumiko)


[personal profile] aris_tgd
2010-06-16 08:09 am UTC (link)
Ahahaaa, I find it kinda hilarious that we both came up with the same basic rationalization.

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gelasius: (atla_cabbages)


[personal profile] gelasius
2010-06-16 08:13 am UTC (link)
Heh, yeah. There was definitely some head-tilt rationalization going on in reading it.

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ariadne83: (rodney heartbroken)


[personal profile] ariadne83
2010-06-16 10:41 am UTC (link)
Even the title is problematic. I can't believe the writer equated "pre-op trans" with lying not-truth.

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2010-06-16 10:51 am UTC (link)
Oh yeah. I didn't even register the title. D:

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dancesontrains: A brown-skinned female leg with roller skatesis on the floor (Falling down on the skates)


[personal profile] dancesontrains
2010-06-16 11:00 am UTC (link)
I just saw that on my f-list and made an :\ face at what the summary seemed to be implying. I'm sorry it's as bad as I feared it might be.

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2010-06-16 11:11 am UTC (link)
Yeah... :-/

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inkstone: Air Gear's Ringo looking dubious, text: ... (...)


[personal profile] inkstone
2010-06-16 11:22 am UTC (link)
...................

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2010-06-16 11:30 am UTC (link)
That was pretty much my first reaction, too...

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dagas_isa: Kanzaki Nao from Liar Game (smug nao)


[personal profile] dagas_isa
2010-06-16 11:48 am UTC (link)
Really? Huh.

TBH, I think if it weren't for the last part of the prompt (or if the last part of the prompt was changed to something else), I could take the idea of writing a butch/tomboy/dykey trans woman. But that prompt, taken as is? I'm not sure how that gets interpreted as Rachel being a trans woman.

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2010-06-17 09:37 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I really don't know.

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ten: Naked male torso (Manfleshnomnomnom)


[personal profile] ten
2010-06-16 01:16 pm UTC (link)
To be fair, I read that quote as Rachel feeling like she 'is actually one of the guys', not as the author claiming she is.

But that summary! And that title! And the story as far as I managed to read it 8about halfway). Just... all reeks of utter cluelessness.

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2010-06-17 09:39 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I wasn't sure with that quote. The sentence is kind of confusingly-constructed, so I was just like, wait, what?

It really doesn't get any less clueless the rest of the way through. :-/

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sasha_feather: cake that says WTF on it (WTF cake)


[personal profile] sasha_feather
2010-06-16 03:21 pm UTC (link)
Ugh! How awful. :(

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2010-06-17 09:39 am UTC (link)
Yeah. >_<

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willwrite_fortea: (CRAP [TOS])


[personal profile] willwrite_fortea
2010-06-16 04:28 pm UTC (link)
author of the fic here and FUCK guys I don't even. I cannot say how sorry I am. I'll a make a post or something.. I am quite open to criticism there or here

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iambickilometer: (matt considers with his brain)


[personal profile] iambickilometer
2010-06-16 06:46 pm UTC (link)
I think the main problem for me was that here you had MTF Rachel who is talking about living a lie. At first I thought you were writing FTM Rachel, and then I thought you were making her identify as female but butch (which I think is a really cool idea, because not all transwomen are super girly, but I digress). When I realised that no, she wasn't looking to be regarded as more butch, she was troubled by the fact that people no longer saw her as a man -- that bothered me a bit. I know in my experience, I am never bothered by people failing to mislabel me by my birth sex, and this seems to be true with the other trans people I have talked to -- regardless of their gender identity.

The other thing is that being pre-op trans is not inherently lying. Neither is being non-op trans. I actually do find this offensive.

Thank you for being open to critique, though. And I at least accept your apology.

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esmenet: Little!Anthy with swords (anthy~)


[personal profile] esmenet
2010-06-16 09:28 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for being willing to listen.

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2010-06-16 09:32 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for apologising and for being open to criticism. I hope you will read the comments here to get an idea of the things that people are objecting to. I will also try to write up some more thorough comments later.

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aris_tgd: Personal avatar Phumiko (phumiko)


[personal profile] aris_tgd
2010-06-17 06:10 am UTC (link)
Hey, running smack into your own privilege is always a painful experience. It's good to hear you're taking the criticism to heart. I can't accept your apology as I'm not part of the trans community, but it does make me feel better to hear it.

As far as critique goes, I think the main point that I'd emphasize is that while each trans or genderqueer person has their own identity and story, that identity is genuine--and while they may question their identity and place in the bigender/cisprivileged world, their own determination of their gender identity is not a "lie" or a deception, no matter what physical sex they have or what they've been assigned. What seems to have not come through in your story is a distinction between Rachel's questioning about her identity and an assertion that her identity is somehow deceptive. It looks like from your post that you meant to write her as genderqueer? From the reactions here it looks like that didn't really come off. You have to be careful when you're dabbling in a narrative which could reinforce those biology-as-destiny tropes which have hurt a lot of people already.

Good luck going forward. Oh, and if someone hasn't dropped you a link already, I've found the blog Questioning Transphobia to be helpful. There's a 101 tag on the sidebar.

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sorchar: Sparkly brain (epilepsy)


[personal profile] sorchar
2010-06-18 02:39 am UTC (link)
Good on you - if only everyone could react with good sense and grace when we're called on our privilege. *not naming names*

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2010-07-02 02:40 am UTC (link)
Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. It's not that I've been ignoring you, but while I want to write this up because you've indicated you're willing to listen, it's difficult for me.

First off, the title: "Not a lie, yet not a truth". I understand why you chose this title, and I can see how it fits the story. But I think in this case, it's best to avoid anything that links being stealth with lying. The idea that the gender a trans person says they are is a lie and the gender they were assigned at birth is their true gender is not only hurtful to trans people, but it's used as a reason to discriminate, harrass, and even kill trans people all the time. I don't think you meant to say that Rachel's stated gender was a lie, but that word has too much baggage to be used here.

Secondly, the prompt: "I look like a dude, I dress like a boy, I'm kind of mannish -- Rachel wishes someone would just take the hint and ask." While I would have some problems with the fic on its own, it is really in relation to the prompt that I have the most trouble. The prompt is saying "there's something masculine about me and I wish you would take these hints I'm sending out". From that, I would assume that Rachel is either ftm or FAAB (female-assigned at birth) but genderqueer. From your comments on your journal, it seems like what you were going for is Rachel as male-assigned at birth, but female-leaning genderqueer. I think this could work for the prompt as well, however, it is an interpretation that would have to be done very, very carefully, and that is where your story fell down.

Because your Rachel actually has two "secrets". The first is that she is not a cis woman as everyone assumes, and the second is that she is not a trans woman either, but is genderqueer.

Unfortunately, the second does not come through in the story because there is no differentiation between the two. Rachel reveals her non-cisness but does not clarify what it is she is revealing instead, giving the impression that what she is revealing is that she is a trans woman.

And when it looks like she's revealing that she is a trans woman, we the audience are left trying to connect that to the prompt where the fact that she is giving off masculine signals is supposed to be her hinting at something. So it comes off as saying "trans women are really men", "you can tell a trans woman because they are masculine", etc. I'm sure you can see how problematic that is. Those are prejudices trans women face all the time IRL, prejudices that get them harrassed, beaten, and killed. It's hard to believe a trans woman who felt she was looking or acting masculine would see that as a good way to try to hint to her friends that she was not cis.

In order to make the story you wanted to tell work, I think Rachel would already have to be out to her friends as not being cis. Perhaps she had at one time come out as trans, but is now considering herself more genderqueer and is trying to think of a way to tell her friends that without making it sound like she's "changed her mind" or whatever (cis people like to hassle trans and genderqueer people about that a lot). So you have her giving hints and hoping maybe they'll pick up on them and ask what's going on.

But the key here is that she has to already be out as not cisgender in order to avoid what happened with the story as you wrote it. I think this could be a very interesting story. There are people who come out as trans and later decide they're more genderqueer, and it can be awkward for them to explain that, especially if they've been vocal about being trans before (I have friends who have gone through this exact experience).

I hope this will be helpful for you. If you have any further questions or would like to discuss what I've said here, please feel free to let me know.

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willwrite_fortea: (Deep in thought [Rahm])


[personal profile] willwrite_fortea
2010-07-02 11:31 am UTC (link)
it has, I'm in tears again but your comments have all been very helpful. I think I can try that rewrite soon.. maybe. I've been doing this summer camp all week & 5 yr olds really can drain a person of energy

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iambickilometer: (further investigations)


[personal profile] iambickilometer
2010-06-16 06:33 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I read that too, and I had to close it and go find something else because what. I thought I was getting FTM!Rachel for the entire intro of that story, and was really fucking confused when I didn't.

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2010-06-17 09:36 am UTC (link)
Yeah, same here. It...really made more sense that way!

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maevele: (sing)


[personal profile] maevele
2010-06-16 07:01 pm UTC (link)
and I would have loved a story where Rachel is dying for someone to ask so she can explain she's a trans man.

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2010-06-17 09:29 am UTC (link)
It's not my fandom, but I would definitely read that!

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[personal profile] amethystfirefly
2010-06-16 08:31 pm UTC (link)
Excuse me while I go pick up pieces of my brain. The gorrammed thing exploded all over the room.

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2010-06-17 09:40 am UTC (link)
Heh. Yeah...

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sorchar: Sparkly brain (epilepsy)


[personal profile] sorchar
2010-06-16 11:58 pm UTC (link)
Logic has no place in this world. What's more important is clunky wordplay!

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torachan: anime-style me ver. 2.0 (anime me)


[personal profile] torachan
2010-06-17 09:40 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I just think they were really, really clueless... :-/

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